Anyway:
Jamie!
This is Cory, How are you?
You're someone I want to keep in contact with, because it's hard to find
someone who so actively digs into the human brain/soul/heart/whatever...
Anyway, 2 things:
Would you be able to compile a list of my quotes that you wrote down
while you were here? It's always interesting to see how you have
impressed others...
I have a blog of sorts; ramblings and rants on various topics. It's at
onag.blogspot.com
It may present to you probing questions to ask.
Cheers,
Cory
*****
"How do you know whether you are hitting your own personal boundaries, or you're hitting a limit where you can't go farther"
"Everyone has some sort of void in their soul...."
"...that the things that are hilarious are taken far too seriously by far too many people..."
"We have no objective way of determining if our reality is the same as someone else's"
I haven't thought about the first quote yet because I'm terrified that there might actually be a limit where ''you'' can't go farther. That would fuck with my current philosophy of the world. Yet the very act of being terrified implies there is such a limit....I guess I'm just reluctant to reconstruct my notions of the world this month. I think at this point you were referring to some kind of inner personal limit however and not such concepts as the universe and different dimensions and whatnot. That makes is slightly easier to answer, yet is it even necessary to ask questions about the expanse of space seeing as how whatever knowledge we get doesn't affect its very nature...(or does it?) or ours?
-side tangent- why do we even look for answers in general? Is there ever some kind of permanent answer? If we do not ever actually know everything-which we cannot- or even real answers, ones that are really the Truth and not some kind of answers we have decided on for our own life construction and stability, it is very improbably that we could ever actually know them...so what is the point of questions (ah ha) of searching? What makes someone decide on a certain set of values on which to base their lives?
Back on semi-track. Is this limit you were referring to some kind of inner limit? Some 'soul' limit?
Your other quotes suffered a tragic (they were introduced to my car before they made it to my journal) death.
*****
Yeah, my language was kind of vague... it wouldn't do in a proof. Let's try again:
"How does one know whether they are hitting the boundaries of their own comfort, or an insurmountable-- universal-- mental limit." (i use the singular, ambiguous "they", because it is less awkward than the alternatives.)
It's a scary thing to think about; we have some desire-- some need-- to know everything; what happens if we can't?
I don't know whether this limit is some sort of "soul limit" some sort of paradox of self-reference-- i.e. a boundary on our capacity for metacognition.
So. On questions. This is one that has bugged me for quite some time. I've managed to sidestep the question (more, push it out of the way so i don't have to figure it out) by saying i like to learn because there's beauty in it. This is, in part, a cop out. There's truth to it, but that's only a part of the drive.
The real reason is that it seems (at least temporarily) to fill the void in my soul. Hereafter, i'll refer to this void as nostalgia or despair; i'll explain this idea later. Anyway, whenever i think of the quest for knowledge, i think of Unamuno's The Tragic Sense of Life, which i recommend you read if you have questions about our quest for knowledge. Essentially, it's about the very existential idea of despair, the source of that despair and how we use knowledge to combat that despair. I either completely agree or completely disagree with everything he has to say, but it's an interesting read either way.
Anyway, despair:
A lot of philosophers have discussed the concept itself directly, and i find it difficult to think that any philosopher has hoped for anything greater than to understand it. We have, as i've stated, a void in our soul. Despair (the state of being) itself is the recognition of that void, and the conflict created by trying to understand the nature of that void, as well as the struggle to fill or remove that void.
The Christian answer to "what causes despair?" is that we have a longing for an intimacy with God-- an intimacy, which, being fallen creatures, eludes us in except in brief flashes and moments of clarity. This is, i think, an adequate assessment. The general idea can be generalized to be compatible with more humanist philosophies by saying "we have a longing for inclusion in something greater than ourselves." All of human action can be reduced to a (perceived) fulfillment of this desire. The Christian has the benefit of having found a somewhat satisfactory explanation of the cause, but this still does not help us with the solution to the question "How do we fill the void?" The answer, of course, would be "intimacy with God," but what does that /really/ mean?
One my list of problems with science is the attempt to explain away this desire for depth as some sort of result of our biology and mechanical construction. I find this to be a dangerous and morbid simplification of the human condition. It contributes nothing to the discussion of despair, nor does it provide some sort of solution to the "problem". It only gives an excuse for ignoring it, to push it aside. Ignoring something as fundamental to the human condition as despair is a good way to find yourself lost and empty. I think this is where science as a discipline and way of knowing is right now. (There is, of course, some confirmation bias in this characterization of science, but it's something to ponder.)
The more general approach (inclusion in something greater) is more difficult to find any answers to. Why do we need this inclusion? What do we mean, "something greater than ourselves"? How do we gain this inclusion? Alternatively, how do we satisfy this desire? Can this desire be, permanently, or at least satisfactorily fulfilled?
I guess these questions are the next problem in our discussion.
On a related, but perhaps more uplifting note:
It has been suggested (by i forget whom) that hope is impossible without despair. There is a lot of truth in that idea. Hope is the desire (perhaps even need) for fulfillment of something which is outside of your control-- the fulfillment of something greater than yourself. This desire brings you, in some way, into this fulfillment. In other words, hope is the desire for the work of, and thus inclusion in, something greater than yourself. It is a (partial?) fulfillment of despair. Thus, without despair, there can be no hope.
The question, then, is: can we rise above this despair->hope->despair... cycle, or is it the case that "the cure for pain is in the pain"? And, if we can rise above, is it really something we should desire?
(the quote is from "The Cure for Pain" by mewithoutYou; i'd recommend looking up the lyrics to many of their songs...)
I may have had something else to say, but I forgot it.
Cheers,
Cory
*****
Yeah, my language was kind of vague... it wouldn't do in a proof. Let's try again
Seriously. I don't know how you could have made such an error.
It's a scary thing to think about; we have some desire-- some need-- to know everything; what happens if we can't?
EXCATLY!!!!! Yet, could it not be argued-well is obviously can-that life as the potentially beautiful thing that it can be is made possible, maybe even defined by the fact that there never seems to be any concrete answers, except the ones that are semi-hypcritical such as "change is the only constant"? And the search for answers that don't really exist, or maybe do for a limited period of time, defines us......I'm going to stop on the incoherent train of though.
I don't know whether this limit is some sort of "soul limit" some sort
of paradox of self-reference-- i.e. a boundary on our capacity for
metacognition.
hmmm.....well, I think in order to even start going about an answer to that question we need to define what a 'soul' is.
So. On questions. This is one that has bugged me for quite some time.
I've managed to sidestep the question (more, push it out of the way so i
don't have to figure it out) by saying i like to learn because there's
beauty in it. This is, in part, a cop out. There's truth to it, but
that's only a part of the drive.
Agreed.
Anyway, despair:
A lot of philosophers have discussed the concept itself directly, and i
find it difficult to think that any philosopher has hoped for anything
greater than to understand it.
Thats very eloquent of you.
We have, as i've stated, a void in our
soul. Despair (the state of being) itself is the recognition of that
void, and the conflict created by trying to understand the nature of
that void, as well as the struggle to fill or remove that void.
The Christian answer to "what causes despair?" is that we have a longing
for an intimacy with God-- an intimacy, which, being fallen creatures,
eludes us in except in brief flashes and moments of clarity. This is, i
think, an adequate assessment. The general idea can be generalized to be
compatible with more humanist philosophies by saying "we have a longing
for inclusion in something greater than ourselves."
I felt like making a counter-point at this point in time, not with the idea of what was said, but merely because I felt the need to disagree....which brings me to a more interesting question. If two people agree on an answer, but from two completly different points of view, is it really the same answer?
can be reduced to a (perceived) fulfillment of this desire. The
Christian has the benefit of having found a somewhat satisfactory
explanation of the cause, but this still does not help us with the
solution to the question "How do we fill the void?" The answer, of
course, would be "intimacy with God," but what does that really mean?
One my list of problems with science is the attempt to explain away this
desire for depth as some sort of result of our biology and mechanical
construction. I find this to be a dangerous and morbid simplification of
the human condition. Itcontributes nothing to the discussion of
despair, nor does it provide some sort of solution to the "problem". It
only gives an excuse for ignoring it, to push it aside. Ignoring
something as fundamental to the human condition as despair is a good way
to find yourself lost and empty.
Nice quote. Yet, by filling this void, or trying to make it 'go away' are we not still trying to ignore it or push it aside?
The more general approach (inclusion in something greater) is more
difficult to find any answers to. Why do we need this inclusion? What do
we mean, "something greater than ourselves"? How do we gain this
inclusion? Alternatively, how do we satisfy this desire? Can this desire
be, permanently, or at least satisfactorily fulfilled?
I guess these questions are the next problem in our discussion.
Or does it need to be filled? What if, op, just kidding, way to address that in the next paragraph. Or, somewhat. What if it is this void that not only gives us hope, an hard quality to try to define,? My current theory is that it is this void, this despair that makes life so incredibly, for lack of a better word and approaching class, amazing and difficult and different. I'm just going to ramble now. For awhile, basically my whole life, I've been searching for a way to fill this void, comfort the despair. But more recently I decided to try to embrace it, live whole-heartedly in it. Do you think such a thing is possible? Its rather strange. I don't know what to think about it. In which case there is no need to rise above it but rather incorporate it into one's being.
On a related, but perhaps more uplifting note:
It has been suggested (by i forget whom) that hope is impossible without
despair. There is a lot of truth in that idea. Hope is the desire
(perhaps even need) for fulfillment of something which is outside of
your control-- the fulfillment of something greater than yourself.
[...]
Also, assuming this conversation continues in the direction it is going,
could I post it online?
Feel free. ..... (novel concept :)
I can tell you have absolutly nothing to say about the world. Its interesting. I've missed alot of your ideas this time around because you include so many in each sentence and I'm late to class, but I wonder if you need a reply to the questions you ask, or merely the oportunity to fully do so. Because there is such a ...life? in the moment of asking questions.
Ellie has probably already asked you a question similar to this one-
but if you could have an answer, figure out any one thing, what would it be?
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